Talk:Joseph McCarthy/Archive 1
OK, question: How was Senator McCarthy participating in the House Un-American Activities Committee? I had been under the impression the activities of the two were at least nominally separate. --Fubar Obfusco
- You're right. He wasn't (according to the noted external link). --Reboot
- The force of McCarthy's personality was so great that he virtually took over the anti-Communist movement in the United States, ultimately discrediting even legitimate concerns about Communist influence in various government bodies and other organizations.
- This sentence assumes that it is "legitimate" to have concerns about Communist influence in government bodies and organizations. (Compare: ultimately descrediting even legitimate concerns about capitalist influence in various government bodies) Legitimate is a hard word to use well NPOV-ly.
- Depending on what "ultimately" means in this context, this is not entirely true. As late as the 60s and the 70s--indeed, as late as the documents run--the FBI was investigating many people for ties to communism and having many of them fired.
Something like ultimately discrediting many investigations into Communist influence in government bodies--even ones which he took no part in. would be more neutral and more accurate. DanKeshet
I don't agree:
- "Illegitimate investigations" -- pursuit of government employees for their political beliefs.
- "Legitimate investigations" -- pursuit of moles, covert agents of foreign powers acting secretly within the government, like Alger Hiss.
It was the illegitimate McCarthyist pursuit of all sorts of innocuous citizens that discredited the legitimate pursuit of spies like Hiss. Ortolan88
- That's your definition of legitimate; I didn't know until you said so. Some people thought it was "legitimate" to investigate civilians but "illegimate" to investigate soldiers. Given your clarification, then, I would prefer ultimately discrediting even investigations into agents of Communist countries acting within government bodies and other organizations. Is this what you meant in the first place?
- But beyond the definition of legitimate, I still doubt the veracity of the statement. This paper says that McCarthy became a liability when he went after friends of other senators, but that the Cold War regime stayed very much in place. It seems highly illogical to me that the government would have difficulty continuing to pursue "legitimate" or "illegitimate" investigations of communists in government, then turn around and spend millions of dollars and 13 years investigating and harassing CPUSA under COINTELPRO. Admittedly, though, I haven't had the chance to study this period in American history very thoroughly. Do you have any starting points? Where did you get this statement from? Thanks, DanKeshet PS. Ortolan: Despite the fact we seem to disagree about many issues, I find it very pleasant working with you to fix up articles. :)
Thanks.
This article was short and punchy, but it was not rubbish. It is now long and boring, and still not rubbish, but I am not through contributing to it and I don't expect to hear any more about rubbish.~~
- It was short. It wasn't necessarily punchy, i'd prefer the term "inaccurate" (McCarthy was nowhere near taking over the anti-communist movement, for a start, except as that movement was seen by the media). It spent a paragraph talking in a vague and unhelpful way about McCarthyism, a topic much better cover in the...um...page on McCarthyism. A page on McCarthy should be about McCarthy, which is what it now is. Having said that I was probably crossing the line to call it 'rubbish', for which I apologise. "Boring" is a bad term to apply to an encyclopaedia article. Encyclopaedia articles aren't necessarily meant to be gripping, they're meant to be a useful source of information, which I believe this article now is, more so than it was before. --AW
Does anyone know what the copyright or rights involved in the government documents linked in "external links"? The prologue to the recently declassified documents is outstanding and gives a much more indepth history into McCarthy than we currently have. --Reboot
Quite a lot of content was removed in recent edits... didn't seem that it was that POV... wouldn't rephrasing be better? -- Wapcaplet
- The stuff removed was POV. I tried to rewrite it in a NPOV way. Some things there is dispute about, and can't be regarded as factual, and so were removed. If I removed anything factual, please reinstate it. However, please note that due to the emotional nature of McCarthys actions, it is hard to find honest reporting on him. Original transcripts of Senate hearings and the like are the only evidence I can really trust on this issue. There was also some stuff that more appropriately belongs in the article on McCarthyism. I will be editing that article shortly. Sorry if my edits seemed too bold. 209.53.16.55
- Good point. Now that I look closer at it, the stuff you removed was rather wishy-washy and wandering. Your version is definitely better. Keep up the good work :) -- Wapcaplet
- Anyone who contributes a link to something called "How the Marxists in America Destroyed Joe McCarthy" can hardly be considered neutral on the subject. -- Zoe
- Zoe, the fellow made substantial edits, and from what I can see he made real NPOV improvements. Removing someones entire work because you don't like one part of it seems a bit excessive. On any emotionally charged political issue or bit of history, there will be contrasting views. You may not like the link he provided, but it too fills in a part of the story readers of the Wikipedia need to be aware of. -- Moshe Nackmen
I'm going to revert this as Zoe did. I tried to work within the edits but as I looked this over thoroughly and it is full of subtle factual errors (for instance how did Roy Cohn launch the investigation against the Army after he resigned???). The edits seem to be an attempt to subtly vindicate McCarthy or make it seem like he was the victim of some press conspiracy. I'm reviewing the declassified government documents which are far more authorative and contain actual transcripts than the opinion papers used by this author as source material for his edits. -Reboot
- Roy Cohn didn't resign until the Army hearings turned into a major fiasco. Your declassified government documents tell important parts of the story, but not the whole story. Could we have less hand-waving and more facts? If you got this wrong, what else have you gotten wrong in the article, but are refusing to admit to yourself? -- Moshe Nackmen
You regularly attend synagogue -- that's why you link to virulently anti-Semitic articles? -- Toby 13:16 May 7, 2003 (UTC) [on User talk:Moses ben Nachman]
- My rabbi says, and I agree with him, that the only safety for my people is to be honest with each other, and with others. As soon as you start dismissing the truth, you stray from reality, and set yourself up for a hard fall. The article, which I quickly glanced over, seemed factual and well researched. If you don't care about the truth, and objective fact, I suggest that you don't bother involving yourself with an Encyclopedia project. To mention the fact that Bugsy Seigel was a Jew is no more anti-Semitic than it is to say that Boss Tweed was Irish. The article on McCarthy and Roy Cohn falls into the same category. Please, get over yourself. You are giving me a lot of pain and heartache. I really worry for the future of my daughter in a world like this, where people are actively trying to alienate the Gentiles against me and my kin. Remember the pogroms! -- Moshe Nackmen
So your rabbi advised you to blow the lid on the international Jewish conspiracy, eh? And make no mistake, that's what you're claiming if you call the reactor-core article "factual". After all, there's a difference between stating that Roy Cohn was a Jew and stating that "the Jews" as a nebulous whole were behind McCarthy's downfall.
Perhaps you didn't read the article carefully enough; here are some choice quotations:
- "International Communism and international finance -- the twin thrusts of Jewish power -- were both ill-served by the attention McCarthy drew to the issues of loyalty and subversion."
- "If the Senator had taken account of Jewish traits -- especially their bent for deception, which goes far beyond anything encountered in the Gentile world -- then perhaps he would have braved the charges of "anti-Semitism" rather than tolerate Jews on his staff."
- "[...] Sokolsky was well-placed to accomplish much for the Jewish obsession with the New World Order [...]."
You can find more by searching for the string "Jew". Despite the article's title, it's not at all about how "Marxists" destroyed McCarthy; it lays the blame squarely on "the Jews".
As for the alleged tendency to characterise criticism of individual Jews (like Cohn) as anti-Semitism, let me note that I believe that Ariel Sharon deserves to be brought before The Hague on charges of war crimes (both for 1982 and for 2000+). There are some that would call that belief inherently anti-Semitic, but of course it is not. On the other hand, blaming a nebulous international Jewry for political events through control of "international Communism and international finance" is indeed anti-Semitic.
I don't suppose that I'll have much to say if you start objecting to the above -- there's that bit about feeding the trolls. The nature of the link is now laid bare for any future editors, so they won't be tempted to put it back in to provide balance.
-- Toby 04:35 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Instead of reverting and re-reverting, could somebody please add a list of authoritative published books or articles about McCarthy? Surely the man had at least one biographer competent enough to have done real research as to whether, for instance, he was a "social drinker" or a "heavy drinker". Those references are how I and others can determine whether the claims made in this article are true, or have been made up by somebody sneaking in a POV. Stan 18:29 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
From http://www.latimes.com/la-na-mccarthy6may06,1,2134751.story (you need to register to read their articles, but if you do, you'll see that this is what they say): McCarthy was censured by his colleagues in 1954 for conduct unbecoming a senator and his public stature quickly faded. A heavy drinker, he died at age 48 in 1957.. I'm putting back the bit about his drinking. -- Zoe
- I poked around the web in an idle moment, and there seems to be general agreement about the heavy drinking. But interestingly, there also seems to be 4-5 different immediate causes of death cited, although none of them quote a well-researched biography by name, so I don't know which one to believe. Stan 02:38 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Although there seems to be no universally accepted convention for doing so, I wish to cite my edits from yesterday as having used the Intro to the declassified documents linked in external links section (link #1). My second set of edits, this morning, sourced the NPR broadcast (link #2).
I'd like to see us fill out more about McCarthy's gang of reporters (who presumably hung around because he was such a fun guy to drink with) and the role of the media in McCarthism. I'd also like to fill out more about Roy Cohn and the rumored homosexuality of McCarthy (which was false) and Cohn (which was true) being thought to have perhaps brought his attack on homosexuals. Secondly, I'd like to show some more depth on some of the folks who were ruined by McCarthy and the House Committee on Un-American Activities. To pull this off I need to find a cleaner seperation between McCarthy and I suppose the Era of McCarthism as well as the subtopics.
I'd like to research Roy Cohn a little more closely. According to yesterday's NPR broadcast: as a Jew he decided to be as some sort of American avenger and ironically targeted Jews a little more heavily than others. McCarthy never seemed to have racial or anti-semitic motives in his targeting/attacks. The rumors of both McCarthy and Cohn's homosexuality actually might have not only hastened McCarty's marriage but brought on McCarthy's crusade against homosexuals and Sexual perverts. Cohn later proved to be a homosexual. I'd like to find out if he actually did play a part in the short lived crusade against homosexuals and "other sexual perverts". It would make him indeed an interesting character having attacked two minorities of which he was a member!
Any assistance is indeed appreciated on any of these points.
While I'd like to cover these things, I'd like to do it in a way that does not detract from the impact of the article and preserves a balanced and factual account. I realize the article is somewhat controversial even today (though I did not know that in advance) due to the ideological views of some of the participants; however, I appreciate the efforts of everyone to use reference material and facts rather than their mere opinion or belief system. I have full confidence in our abillity to create a balanced factual presentation on McCarthy, McCarthism and the other characters in this interesting history without watering down force and subject of the article. Controversy can be avoided by citing it here and scruitinzing non-credible sources.
- Reboot May 8 09:38AM (EDT)
---
Please do not remove the NPR link. I used it as source material and secondly it was rather authorative as several authors and experts were interviewed on the subject of McCarthy. There was some great information which adds balance.
- Reboot May 19 00:32 (EDT)
A lot of this Roy Cohn material needs to be split out into its own article. -- Zoe
Sounds like a good idea, care to give it a go? They should still be linked. -- Reboot ---
- His hunt was made easier in the backdrop of the Great Depression where many desperate Americans had joined "labor fronts" and other organizations which later became associated with communism. Mr. Cohn, having reached his maturity after the depression reportedly could not sympathise with this and pursued such individuals with vigor. In his "memoirs" he reported that a retired university professor had once told him "that had I been born twelve or fifteen years earlier my word-view and therefore my character would have been very different."
This belongs in an article on Cohn. --Len
---
I think we need more detail on the tactics McCarthy used and some statistics between those he indicted and those who actually were communists. --Reboot
Agreed, but it isn't trivial to find the data. Most McCarthy mentions on the web are broad and hysterical--for example, tying him to the HUAC, blaming him for the Hollywood blacklisting that took place before he even came onto the scene, etc. A simple list, of the people he actually accused, should be a matter of public record, but isn't yielding to spare-time searches. --Len
I'm curious about the external links. They are all regarding how unfairly treated McCarthy apparently was, and how he was a great guy regardless. It seems a bit one-sided to me. -- goatasaur 15:22 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, the issue of the links is rapidly turning into an edit war, but it's obvious we shouldn't be linking only to such one-sided articles. I removed them (again). Evercat 14:07 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- To anon: Feel free to explain how linking only to a whole bunch of far-right sites about how wonderful McCarthy was can possibly be NPOV. I await your answer, here. Evercat 19:52 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You are saying that facts are irrelevant, if they are presented by the "wrong" people? The NPOV clearly says that we need to be neutral and balanced. Excluding a viewpoint isn't allowed just because a few people don't like it; but it is much worse to discard actual facts because they don't agree with your political views. This isn't the place to push communist propaganda. I am very concerned by what seems like a lack of regard for the truth. I am going to put the links back until you point out factual errors in them, instead of complaining that the articles were written by people with a different political ideology than you. Innocent until proven guilty! --195.68.95.209
- NPOV means presenting both sides of the debate, not just yours. There could possibly be a place for one or two of your links, but not without some balance. It should be obvious that linking only to sites on one side of the debate is not NPOV. Evercat 20:10 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is no debate here, just trying to get the facts heard. There are many inaccuracies in the article, which keep being reverted. The least you can do is allow the articles to be linked, since they do deal strictly with the facts of the case. Wikipedia biographies should be designed as factual articles, not as smear pieces promoting the viewpoint of the far left. Remember, balance and neutrality. Far-left apologetics is not neutrality! The idea of balance you are promoting seems to be "I want to tell people you are an axe-murderer, and you want to present facts that would lead people to believe this wasn't true. Let's find a balanced compromised; just let me say you beat up your taxi driver while you stay silent." That attitude is clearly contrary to the intent of the NPOV. --195.68.95.209
- I invite you to read NPOV dispute, from which I quote:
- Neutrality is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really does disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties.
- Evercat 20:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Moses ben Machman:
I think [the links] should be there, but properly categorized, and described (see Wikipedia:Describe external links). --Eloquence 00:27 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- That's a very good idea. I'll do that. Evercat 11:08 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)